ClaimsEliezer Yudkowsky

“Because the basic paradigm of machine learning that we are presently operating under is that you can have the loss function, but only for things you can evaluate.”

Eliezer Yudkowsky, interviewee 30 March 2023 Lex Fridman Podcast #368 Eliezer Yudkowsky transcript (Podscript) archived copy

Factual AI capabilities

The basic paradigm of machine learning currently in use is that a loss function can be defined only for things that can be evaluated.

Mostly true True in substance, wrong in a detail.

Factual: Statements about the present or the past, checked against the record: did they hold up?

What would count as true or false

Judge as of 2023-03-30. True: authoritative ML sources (textbooks, surveys, expert commentary) show that mainstream ML training at the time, i.e. gradient-based optimisation of a loss computed against labels, rewards or ratings, required a computable or evaluable signal for whatever was optimised, so that properties that cannot be measured or evaluated cannot be directly trained on. Mostly true: the core point holds but the claim slightly overstates it, e.g. it ignores proxy, self-supervised or learned-reward methods that only partly get around it. Mixed: experts are split on whether this describes 'the basic paradigm' in any meaningful way. Mostly false: the claim is technically related but badly distorts practice, e.g. widespread methods at the time did train effectively on targets that could not be evaluated. False: the evidence shows ML at the time routinely defined and optimised losses on things that could not be evaluated.

Set before the research began.

Evidence (4)

  1. E1 Neural Network Training and Non-Differentiable Objective Functions arXiv (Czech Technical University in Prague thesis, Faculty of Electrical Engineering) · May 2023

    “Training deep networks by gradient descent on the user-defined objective is not possible when the objective is non-differentiable. Deep learning methods use a proxy loss function as a workaround.”
  2. E2 Lecture 3, Part 2: Training a Classifier University of Toronto, CSC311 course notes (Roger Grosse)

    “We can’t just use the classification error itself, because the gradient is zero almost everywhere! Instead, we’ll define a surrogate loss function, i.e. an alternative loss function which is easier to optimize.”
  3. E3 Survey on Self-Supervised Learning: Auxiliary Pretext Tasks and Contrastive Learning Methods in Imaging Entropy (MDPI), via PMC · 14 April 2022

    “The early methods of SSL are based on auxiliary pretext tasks as a way to learn representations using pseudo-labels, or labels that were created automatically based on the dataset’s attributes.”
  4. E4 Neural Network Training and Non-Differentiable Objective Functions arXiv (Czech Technical University in Prague thesis, Faculty of Electrical Engineering) · May 2023

    “Note that methods for training on non-differentiable losses, such as actor-critic [185] and learning surrogates [20] are not directly applicable to recall@k.”

Reasoning

University course notes (E2) and a 2023 thesis (E1) say gradient-based training needs a computable, optimisable loss. When the true objective can't be optimised directly, a surrogate or proxy loss is used instead, which fits the core of the claim. However, E4 names actor-critic and learned-surrogate methods for training on non-differentiable objectives, and E3 describes self-supervised learning with labels created automatically from the data. These are ways of partly working around the limit, so the claim overstates it slightly. That matches the 'mostly true' criterion.

Cite this claim

Eliezer Yudkowsky, “The basic paradigm of machine learning currently in use is that a loss function can be defined only for things that can be evaluated.” (said 30 March 2023). Verdict: mostly true. Reliability API, claim c_b860c50af4d2, method 0.1.0+c876030c, dataset release v1.1.2. https://epistacklabs.com/claims/c_b860c50af4d2

This claim is in dataset release v1.1.2, with the same verdict.

Reply to this claim

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More factual claims by Eliezer Yudkowsky

  1. Resolved true Factual September 2025
    “We learned that that's false, but we did not learn that you can have a thing that can redesign a tree and build an AI much smarter than itself, that builds an AI much smarter than itself, and that…”

    No AI has yet been shown to redesign a tree and build a much smarter AI that builds a still smarter AI; that scenario has not occurred.

  2. Mostly true Factual 25 March 2024
    “I was a passionate noticer of the human brain not being homogenous, and was therefore unpleasantly surprised by transformers scaling as well as they did.”

    Yudkowsky was unpleasantly surprised by how well transformers scaled, having believed the human brain is not homogeneous.

  3. Mostly true Factual 6 April 2023
    “First of all, you realize in principle that the task of minimizing losses on predicting human text does not stop when you’re as smart as a human, right?”

    In principle, the task of minimizing loss on predicting human text does not stop being improvable once a system is as smart as a human.

  4. Mostly true Factual 30 March 2023
    “Transformers are the main thing like that.”

    Transformers were the main architectural change that gave a non-linear jump in performance, compared with earlier approaches such as RNNs.

  5. Mostly true Factual 30 March 2023
    “So 60 years later, we’re making progress on a bunch of that, thankfully not yet improved themselves.”

    Sixty years later, AI has made progress on a number of the earlier problems discussed, such as vision, though AI systems have not yet improved themselves.

All of them

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